[ASC-list] ASC conference

Mobile Science Education info at mobilescienceeducation.com.au
Fri Nov 15 07:43:30 UTC 2013


Is there a facebook-style 'like' button, or something? ;-) 

Lee Harrison
Mobile Science Education
 
0430 588 757 or (08) 8395 9586
info at mobilescienceeducation.com.au
www.mobilescienceeducation.com.au
PO Box 556, Ingle Farm, SA 5098

-----Original Message-----
From: Susan Kirk [mailto:skirk at iprimus.com.au] 
Sent: Friday, 15 November 2013 5:47 PM
To: asc-list at lists.asc.asn.au; info at mobilescienceeducation.com.au
Cc: Niall Byrne
Subject: ASC conference

I agree with Lee. Lets strengthen our base.  I wasn't going to put this to
the list but now I think its appropriate. To put it in context it happened a
while back before this discussion.

I submitted a proposal for a workshop to the conference committee for the
ASC conference, until, I discovered that I would be expected to pay for that
privilege.  OK not completely I think there is $60 off the registration fees
for presenters.  Anyway I withdrew my proposal.  I told Kali of my concerns
and she suggested that I also take the discussion to the list to get an
opinion on 'why people take the time to put on a session at the conference.'

Now I don't really need an answer to that question because I can second
guess most of the reasons.  However, if there is a reason that is not
outlined below then of course I'm very eager to know it.

To place the discussion in context my main question was why are presenters
being asked to donate their time and not being given something in return ie
at least free entrance to the event.  Kali mentioned points about
professional development/ career prospects etc and giving back to the
community etc.

My responses.   I appreciate the concept of giving to the community.  I¹m
more than willing to donate my time Œfree of charge¹ in an effort to
encourage and mentor others, and have done this many many times over the
course of my career.  BUT: I don¹t believe I should be charged for the
privilege.

As a freelance journalist I don¹t have a need to further my career by doing
workshops and networking while beneficial is not a motive for me.  I do
understand if this is of benefit to others and why others may do this, I
still don¹t agree with it, but that¹s their choice.  My motive, in all
honesty, was based on a win-win negotiation.  I give the ASC  many hours of
my time and they give me free entrance to the conference.  I still haven¹t
received an adequate reply as to why this is not the case?  Call me selfish
but even in this situation I still think the scales are slightly tipped and
not in my favour.  Should we be undervaluing our members time this way?

Kali mentioned the lack of sponsorship dollars.  I really don't know much
about the industry from this viewpoint so I can't comment on this.  She went
on to say that the conference rarely breaks even.  To this I say  if the
conference event is not  breaking even, then the ASC may need to consider
how or why it is running this event? If its based on a premise that it will
only be supported in kind by its members; well that's only going to work if
we are thousands strong.  And again, that's not really in kind.

If the ASC wants to become more  Œprofessional¹ then it needs to put its
members first and, in my mind, that doesn¹t mean devaluing their work.  In
my experience with non profit organisations and memberships like ASC they
never truly become successful until they stop Œusing up¹ volunteers and get
motivated to become financially viable.

Again all of this is happening in a vacuum.  You all know my gripe about
that.   It¹s your membership what say yee other ASC members??  Should those
who donate their time conducting workshops be at least given free entrance
to the conference.  Oh oh I forgot to say imagine if I was interstate, so
the ASC would expect me to donate my time; pay for my ticket; and
accommodation and pay to attend the conference cmon....

S

On 15/11/13 8:50 PM, "asc-list-request at lists.asc.asn.au"
<asc-list-request at lists.asc.asn.au> wrote:

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> Today's Topics:
> 
>    1. Re: Where is the ASC headed and top 10 reasons
>       (Mobile Science Education)
>    2. Re: Where is the ASC headed and top 10 reasons (Niall Byrne)
>    3. Re: Where is the ASC headed ... Code of ethics (Rob Morrison)
>    4. Re: Where is the ASC headed and top 10 reasons
>       (Mobile Science Education)
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2013 15:07:00 +1030
> From: "Mobile Science Education" <info at mobilescienceeducation.com.au>
> To: "'Niall Byrne'" <niall at scienceinpublic.com.au>, "'Lisa Bailey'"
> <LBailey at riaus.org.au>, <asc-list at lists.asc.asn.au>
> Subject: Re: [ASC-list] Where is the ASC headed and top 10 reasons
> Message-ID:
> <00d601cee1bc$54022110$fc066330$@mobilescienceeducation.com.au>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> 
> So the 2007 conference isn't really indicative of an ASC conference.
> 
> The money is only part of it, though. Even if the money weren't such 
> an issue, it still takes the majority of the time made available by 
> staff and volunteers; time used to benefit only a small minority of 
> members who can afford the time and expense of the conference. If so 
> much time, risk, effort and expense is benefiting only the minority 
> then I would say priorities have been misplaced.
> 
> I would also question Nancy's assertion that "the biennial gathering 
> of science communicators for a face to face meeting is crucial". Why 
> is it crucial? Nothing on the posted list of Top 10 Reasons requires 
> one. I agree that a decent national conference would be a good goal to 
> work toward, but I would suggest that it's a goal that belongs to the 
> larger organisation that ASC could be in the future. In the meantime, 
> strengthen the base by focusing efforts at the local chapters and 
> online. Make ASC such an attractive association that the eventual
membership roll justifies the conference.
> 
> I would also second Rob's call to reconsider Julian's proposed Code of 
> Ethics, or anyone else's proposals for that matter.
> 
> Lee Harrison
> Mobile Science Education
> ?
> 0430 588 757 or (08) 8395 9586
> info at mobilescienceeducation.com.au
> www.mobilescienceeducation.com.au
> PO Box 556, Ingle Farm, SA 5098
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ASC-list [mailto:asc-list-bounces at lists.asc.asn.au] On Behalf Of 
> Niall Byrne
> Sent: Friday, 15 November 2013 1:46 PM
> To: Lisa Bailey; asc-list at lists.asc.asn.au
> Subject: Re: [ASC-list] Where is the ASC headed and top 10 reasons
> 
> The 2007 conference was held jointly with AMWA and the World 
> Federation of Science Journalists and attracted 620 delegates. There 
> were a few other spin out activities.
> 
> There's potential for ASC to do similar things in the future with 
> PCST, WFSJ, and others. Of course the first ASC conference was held 
> with the PCST in 1996.
> 
> However, the 2007 conference was also a large undertaking with a total 
> budget in excess of $1.2 million. Some of us involved in it took some 
> big personal financial risks for which we were compensated when the 
> dollars came in post-event. Many others put in a great deal of time.
> 
> Niall
> 
> ________
> 
> Niall Byrne
> ?
> Science in Public
> 0417 131 977, niall at scienceinpublic.com.au Twitter scienceinpublic 
> Full contact details at?www.scienceinpublic.com.au
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ASC-list [mailto:asc-list-bounces at lists.asc.asn.au] On Behalf Of 
> Lisa Bailey
> Sent: Friday, 15 November 2013 1:53 PM
> To: asc-list at lists.asc.asn.au
> Subject: Re: [ASC-list] Where is the ASC headed and top 10 reasons
> 
> The 2007 conference did co-incide with a much larger international 
> World Conference of Science Journalists didn't it?  Might explain why 
> there was a bigger drawcard that year.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> ASC-list mailing list
> list at asc.asn.au
> http://www.asc.asn.au/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=97&Ite
> mid=11
> 5
> _______________________________________________
> ASC-list mailing list
> list at asc.asn.au
> http://www.asc.asn.au/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=97&Ite
> mid=11
> 5
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2013 04:55:41 +0000
> From: Niall Byrne <niall at scienceinpublic.com.au>
> To: Mobile Science Education <info at mobilescienceeducation.com.au>,
> "'Lisa Bailey'" <LBailey at riaus.org.au>, "asc-list at lists.asc.asn.au"
> <asc-list at lists.asc.asn.au>
> Subject: Re: [ASC-list] Where is the ASC headed and top 10 reasons
> Message-ID:
> <252D7BC7826F794FBE6BC799874B06B4657FB5DF at MBX021-E3-NJ-2.exch021.domai
> n.local>
> 
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> 
> I disagree. 
> 
> The conference is potentially incredibly powerful. I'd argue that as 
> ASC grows it should become an annual conference. Many smaller 
> organisations do so successfully including the medical writers.
> 
> It's where we can engage with science leaders for example for the 
> coming ASC conference we'll have the opportunity to grill the head of 
> the ARC and hopefully of the NHMRC and CSIRO on their priorities in
science communication.
> 
> It's where we can engage with some of the best practice in the game.
> 
> It's where we can engage with other groups - for example the AusSMC 
> and RIAus have often arranged for their board meetings to coincide with
ASC conferences.
> And that's led to past and present SMH editors, Channel Nine news 
> directors and others sharing their perspectives with us.
> 
> It broadens our horizons.
> 
> It enables collaborations. Three of our past conferences have been 
> collaborations and I think our next one is a collaboration with SCANZ.
> 
> Several of the conferences have stood as milestones in science 
> communication and I expect they will continue to do so.
> 
> Niall
> ________
> 
> Niall Byrne
> ?
> Science in Public????
> 0417 131 977, niall at scienceinpublic.com.au Twitter scienceinpublic 
> Full contact details at?www.scienceinpublic.com.au
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mobile Science Education 
> [mailto:info at mobilescienceeducation.com.au]
> Sent: Friday, 15 November 2013 3:37 PM
> To: Niall Byrne; 'Lisa Bailey'; asc-list at lists.asc.asn.au
> Subject: RE: [ASC-list] Where is the ASC headed and top 10 reasons
> 
> So the 2007 conference isn't really indicative of an ASC conference.
> 
> The money is only part of it, though. Even if the money weren't such 
> an issue, it still takes the majority of the time made available by 
> staff and volunteers; time used to benefit only a small minority of 
> members who can afford the time and expense of the conference. If so 
> much time, risk, effort and expense is benefiting only the minority 
> then I would say priorities have been misplaced.
> 
> I would also question Nancy's assertion that "the biennial gathering 
> of science communicators for a face to face meeting is crucial". Why 
> is it crucial? Nothing on the posted list of Top 10 Reasons requires 
> one. I agree that a decent national conference would be a good goal to 
> work toward, but I would suggest that it's a goal that belongs to the 
> larger organisation that ASC could be in the future. In the meantime, 
> strengthen the base by focusing efforts at the local chapters and 
> online. Make ASC such an attractive association that the eventual
membership roll justifies the conference.
> 
> I would also second Rob's call to reconsider Julian's proposed Code of 
> Ethics, or anyone else's proposals for that matter.
> 
> Lee Harrison
> Mobile Science Education
> ?
> 0430 588 757 or (08) 8395 9586
> info at mobilescienceeducation.com.au
> www.mobilescienceeducation.com.au
> PO Box 556, Ingle Farm, SA 5098
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ASC-list [mailto:asc-list-bounces at lists.asc.asn.au] On Behalf Of 
> Niall Byrne
> Sent: Friday, 15 November 2013 1:46 PM
> To: Lisa Bailey; asc-list at lists.asc.asn.au
> Subject: Re: [ASC-list] Where is the ASC headed and top 10 reasons
> 
> The 2007 conference was held jointly with AMWA and the World 
> Federation of Science Journalists and attracted 620 delegates. There 
> were a few other spin out activities.
> 
> There's potential for ASC to do similar things in the future with 
> PCST, WFSJ, and others. Of course the first ASC conference was held with
the PCST in 1996.
> 
> However, the 2007 conference was also a large undertaking with a total 
> budget in excess of $1.2 million. Some of us involved in it took some 
> big personal financial risks for which we were compensated when the 
> dollars came in post-event. Many others put in a great deal of time.
> 
> Niall
> 
> ________
> 
> Niall Byrne
> ?
> Science in Public
> 0417 131 977, niall at scienceinpublic.com.au Twitter scienceinpublic 
> Full contact details at?www.scienceinpublic.com.au
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ASC-list [mailto:asc-list-bounces at lists.asc.asn.au] On Behalf Of 
> Lisa Bailey
> Sent: Friday, 15 November 2013 1:53 PM
> To: asc-list at lists.asc.asn.au
> Subject: Re: [ASC-list] Where is the ASC headed and top 10 reasons
> 
> The 2007 conference did co-incide with a much larger international 
> World Conference of Science Journalists didn't it?  Might explain why 
> there was a bigger drawcard that year.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> ASC-list mailing list
> list at asc.asn.au
> http://www.asc.asn.au/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=97&Ite
> mid=11
> 5
> _______________________________________________
> ASC-list mailing list
> list at asc.asn.au
> http://www.asc.asn.au/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=97&Ite
> mid=11
> 5
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 3
> Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2013 05:05:56 +0000
> From: Rob Morrison <rob.morrison at flinders.edu.au>
> To: Niall Byrne <niall at scienceinpublic.com.au>, Lisa Bailey 
> <LBailey at riaus.org.au>, "asc-list at lists.asc.asn.au"
> <asc-list at lists.asc.asn.au>
> Subject: Re: [ASC-list] Where is the ASC headed ... Code of ethics
> Message-ID:
> <3777103a67a54f6c9c68bb6c1c17ab01 at SIXPR03MB079.apcprd03.prod.outlook.c
> om>
> 
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> 
> Julian is quite correct in his references to his work on a code of 
> ethics. The executive has (or, rather, several executives have), over 
> the years, produced or nearly produced this code, as well as other
guidelines and similar things.
> I once prepared some guidelines for young Science communicators about 
> how to put stuff on line, and a protocol for email distribution.  Both 
> of these were on the ASC website for years, but would by now have been 
> overtaken by technology and other changes.
> 
> Julian was not so fortunate. His was a good list, but in the nature of 
> these things, discussion was protracted and when that extends over a 
> year, there is always the chance that a new Executive comes in and 
> loses track of what the past one has done. Things then get overtaken 
> by new issues. From memory, this happened to Julian's suggestions, It 
> also happened to a lot of work i had done on ASC approval and 
> endorsement for short training programs, and it may have happened to
others as well.
> 
> It is perhaps in the nature of an association like ASC that this 
> happens, especially with volunteers all pressed for time, but it can 
> mean that those who are prepared to put in a lot of work on something 
> feel that they have wasted their time, and we are then less likely to 
> have them prepared to act again.
> 
> I suggest Julian be invited to put his suggestions forward again (I am 
> sure he still has them because he produced them on request for a 
> previous exec)  and we decide to deal with them one way or another 
> within a stated time frame. It will be too close to the AGM to deal 
> with them this year, but they could be placed as an AGM item that we 
> ask the incoming Committee to deal in one definitive way or another
within 6 months.
> 
> The Exec list is always too long to get through, but this would give 
> this issue a high priority which, in fairness to Julian, it should by now
have.
> 
> Dr Rob Morrison
> rob.morrison at flinders.edu.au
> Phone: (08) 8339 3790
> Fax: (08)8339 6272
> ________________________________________
> From: ASC-list <asc-list-bounces at lists.asc.asn.au> on behalf of Niall 
> Byrne <niall at scienceinpublic.com.au>
> Sent: Friday, 15 November 2013 1:46 PM
> To: Lisa Bailey; asc-list at lists.asc.asn.au
> Subject: Re: [ASC-list] Where is the ASC headed and top 10 reasons
> 
> The 2007 conference was held jointly with AMWA and the World 
> Federation of Science Journalists and attracted 620 delegates. There 
> were a few other spin out activities.
> 
> There's potential for ASC to do similar things in the future with 
> PCST, WFSJ, and others. Of course the first ASC conference was held with
the PCST in 1996.
> 
> However, the 2007 conference was also a large undertaking with a total 
> budget in excess of $1.2 million. Some of us involved in it took some 
> big personal financial risks for which we were compensated when the 
> dollars came in post-event. Many others put in a great deal of time.
> 
> Niall
> 
> ________
> 
> Niall Byrne
> 
> Science in Public
> 0417 131 977, niall at scienceinpublic.com.au Twitter scienceinpublic 
> Full contact details at www.scienceinpublic.com.au
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ASC-list [mailto:asc-list-bounces at lists.asc.asn.au] On Behalf Of 
> Lisa Bailey
> Sent: Friday, 15 November 2013 1:53 PM
> To: asc-list at lists.asc.asn.au
> Subject: Re: [ASC-list] Where is the ASC headed and top 10 reasons
> 
> The 2007 conference did co-incide with a much larger international 
> World Conference of Science Journalists didn't it?  Might explain why 
> there was a bigger drawcard that year.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> ASC-list mailing list
> list at asc.asn.au
> http://www.asc.asn.au/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=97&Ite
> mid=115 _______________________________________________
> ASC-list mailing list
> list at asc.asn.au
> http://www.asc.asn.au/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=97&Ite
> mid=115
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 4
> Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2013 16:07:48 +1030
> From: "Mobile Science Education" <info at mobilescienceeducation.com.au>
> To: "'Niall Byrne'" <niall at scienceinpublic.com.au>, "'Lisa Bailey'"
> <LBailey at riaus.org.au>, <asc-list at lists.asc.asn.au>
> Subject: Re: [ASC-list] Where is the ASC headed and top 10 reasons
> Message-ID:
> <00dc01cee1c4$d2b0ba00$78122e00$@mobilescienceeducation.com.au>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> 
> I agree that the conference is *potentially* powerful. But currently 
> that potential is limited to a minority of ASC members - perhaps the 
> rest may not feel like subsidising the networking opportunities of the 
> few people who can afford to actually be there. And yes, subsidise is the
word.
> 
> I also believe that the reason some smaller organisations successfully 
> hold an annual conference is because they are more unified in what 
> they do, have a tighter focus, and  the field has a longer history as 
> a recognised profession - we do not have those advantages (see my original
post).
> 
> I agree that it is a chance to engage with science leaders but, again, 
> it is a chance for the few of us who can be there. Perhaps the rest 
> would rather the money, time and effort were being spent elsewhere?
> 
> I'm not sure I agree at all about best practice because a) I haven't 
> actually seen it (not being there, and all...), and b) who makes the 
> determination of 'best practice' and on what metric?
> 
> The conference is indeed where some of us can engage with other 
> groups. Not many of us, though - what about the rest of us? The 
> conference can broaden horizons for some few of us, yes - but what about
the rest of us?
> 
> Do you see my point? I am not, an any way, opposed to a national 
> science communication conference. What I am opposed to is trying to 
> pull one off with *such limited resources* on behalf of *so few* of 
> our members and with such a low success rate.
> 
> Lee Harrison
> Mobile Science Education
> ?
> 0430 588 757 or (08) 8395 9586
> info at mobilescienceeducation.com.au
> www.mobilescienceeducation.com.au
> PO Box 556, Ingle Farm, SA 5098
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Niall Byrne [mailto:niall at scienceinpublic.com.au]
> Sent: Friday, 15 November 2013 3:26 PM
> To: Mobile Science Education; 'Lisa Bailey'; asc-list at lists.asc.asn.au
> Subject: RE: [ASC-list] Where is the ASC headed and top 10 reasons
> 
> I disagree. 
> 
> The conference is potentially incredibly powerful. I'd argue that as 
> ASC grows it should become an annual conference. Many smaller 
> organisations do so successfully including the medical writers.
> 
> It's where we can engage with science leaders for example for the 
> coming ASC conference we'll have the opportunity to grill the head of 
> the ARC and hopefully of the NHMRC and CSIRO on their priorities in 
> science communication.
> 
> It's where we can engage with some of the best practice in the game.
> 
> It's where we can engage with other groups - for example the AusSMC 
> and RIAus have often arranged for their board meetings to coincide 
> with ASC conferences. And that's led to past and present SMH editors, 
> Channel Nine news directors and others sharing their perspectives with us.
> 
> It broadens our horizons.
> 
> It enables collaborations. Three of our past conferences have been 
> collaborations and I think our next one is a collaboration with SCANZ.
> 
> Several of the conferences have stood as milestones in science 
> communication and I expect they will continue to do so.
> 
> Niall
> ________
> 
> Niall Byrne
> ?
> Science in Public
> 0417 131 977, niall at scienceinpublic.com.au Twitter scienceinpublic 
> Full contact details at?www.scienceinpublic.com.au
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mobile Science Education 
> [mailto:info at mobilescienceeducation.com.au]
> Sent: Friday, 15 November 2013 3:37 PM
> To: Niall Byrne; 'Lisa Bailey'; asc-list at lists.asc.asn.au
> Subject: RE: [ASC-list] Where is the ASC headed and top 10 reasons
> 
> So the 2007 conference isn't really indicative of an ASC conference.
> 
> The money is only part of it, though. Even if the money weren't such 
> an issue, it still takes the majority of the time made available by 
> staff and volunteers; time used to benefit only a small minority of 
> members who can afford the time and expense of the conference. If so 
> much time, risk, effort and expense is benefiting only the minority 
> then I would say priorities have been misplaced.
> 
> I would also question Nancy's assertion that "the biennial gathering 
> of science communicators for a face to face meeting is crucial". Why 
> is it crucial? Nothing on the posted list of Top 10 Reasons requires 
> one. I agree that a decent national conference would be a good goal to 
> work toward, but I would suggest that it's a goal that belongs to the 
> larger organisation that ASC could be in the future. In the meantime, 
> strengthen the base by focusing efforts at the local chapters and 
> online. Make ASC such an attractive association that the eventual
membership roll justifies the conference.
> 
> I would also second Rob's call to reconsider Julian's proposed Code of 
> Ethics, or anyone else's proposals for that matter.
> 
> Lee Harrison
> Mobile Science Education
> ?
> 0430 588 757 or (08) 8395 9586
> info at mobilescienceeducation.com.au
> www.mobilescienceeducation.com.au
> PO Box 556, Ingle Farm, SA 5098
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ASC-list [mailto:asc-list-bounces at lists.asc.asn.au] On Behalf Of 
> Niall Byrne
> Sent: Friday, 15 November 2013 1:46 PM
> To: Lisa Bailey; asc-list at lists.asc.asn.au
> Subject: Re: [ASC-list] Where is the ASC headed and top 10 reasons
> 
> The 2007 conference was held jointly with AMWA and the World 
> Federation of Science Journalists and attracted 620 delegates. There 
> were a few other spin out activities.
> 
> There's potential for ASC to do similar things in the future with 
> PCST, WFSJ, and others. Of course the first ASC conference was held 
> with the PCST in 1996.
> 
> However, the 2007 conference was also a large undertaking with a total 
> budget in excess of $1.2 million. Some of us involved in it took some 
> big personal financial risks for which we were compensated when the 
> dollars came in post-event. Many others put in a great deal of time.
> 
> Niall
> 
> ________
> 
> Niall Byrne
> ?
> Science in Public
> 0417 131 977, niall at scienceinpublic.com.au Twitter scienceinpublic 
> Full contact details at?www.scienceinpublic.com.au
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ASC-list [mailto:asc-list-bounces at lists.asc.asn.au] On Behalf Of 
> Lisa Bailey
> Sent: Friday, 15 November 2013 1:53 PM
> To: asc-list at lists.asc.asn.au
> Subject: Re: [ASC-list] Where is the ASC headed and top 10 reasons
> 
> The 2007 conference did co-incide with a much larger international 
> World Conference of Science Journalists didn't it?  Might explain why 
> there was a bigger drawcard that year.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> ASC-list mailing list
> list at asc.asn.au
> http://www.asc.asn.au/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=97&Ite
> mid=11
> 5
> _______________________________________________
> ASC-list mailing list
> list at asc.asn.au
> http://www.asc.asn.au/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=97&Ite
> mid=11
> 5
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Subject: Digest Footer
> 
> _______________________________________________
> ASC-list mailing list
> list at asc.asn.au
> http://www.asc.asn.au/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=97&Ite
> mid=115
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> End of ASC-list Digest, Vol 108, Issue 36
> *****************************************






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